Author Topic: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?  (Read 1989 times)

Offline Sunny

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Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« on: July 08, 2011, 03:50:36 PM »
Looking for suitable high resolution camera for art reproduction image capture.
Any suggestions?

Hi friends,
I found ambiguity in my post, since many may not know what involves in art reproduction, hence cannot advise me suitably.

Here goes in detail.
I am seriously thinking of a start-up in art reproduction printing and framing service.
Art reproduction involves digitising of Oil Paintings on canvas or paper in enough high resolution, after editing, color correcting, noice cleaning print on a suitable IJ Printer.

The Painter expects a DITTO copy (color & resolution) is reproduced. No compromise !

Am experienced in image editing and digital printing, got good computer system with photoshop software. Printer: I am told Epson/HP/Canon inkjet printers are best suitable.

Quality image capture is my hurdle. Am not expert in photography, trying to study it. With my limited study I found ‘even lighting’ is tough job for image capture of flat paintings.

Scanner is an alternative, but very high cost.

1. A Canon EOS 600D or a Nikon D90 are suitable with good    lighting to start with?
   Or what is best at around 50000 budget? (Less?)
2. What kind of lens?
3. Lighting system ?
4. Editing software. Is Photoshop alone enough?

Thanks in advance for your expert advice !
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 02:40:58 PM by Sunny »

Offline Brendon

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 04:14:34 PM »
I assume your definition of 'affordable' without giving any indication of a budget means you are speaking of affordability in terms of Anil Ambani or Bill Gates.

In that case, try this combo - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/671879-REG/Hasselblad_70480533_H4D_60_Digital_SLR_Camera.html

I hope 60 Megapixels is enough for your requirements. ;D

IF you feel this is a 'bit' out of budget, then I suggest a Canon 550D DSLR or 60D (only 18 MP though) with a Canon TS-E 45mm f2.8 or a Canon 60mm macro lens.

Or get a Nikon D7000 (16 MP) with a Nikon 45mm TE lens

http://www.nikonusa.com/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/2174/PC-E-Micro-NIKKOR-45mm-f%252F2.8D-ED.html

You might need the Tilt and Shift lens to shoot glazed art which might cause reflections. Shooting off axis can help avoid these reflections in the final photo.
Are you a Konica Minolta or Sony Alpha DSLR user? If yes, then please check out http://www.flickr.com/groups/sony-alpha-india/

Offline iamsomnath

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 05:08:27 PM »
I assume your definition of 'affordable' without giving any indication of a budget means you are speaking of affordability in terms of Anil Ambani or Bill Gates.

In that case, try this combo - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/671879-REG/Hasselblad_70480533_H4D_60_Digital_SLR_Camera.html

I hope 60 Megapixels is enough for your requirements. ;D

IF you feel this is a 'bit' out of budget, then I suggest a Canon 550D DSLR or 60D (only 18 MP though) with a Canon TS-E 45mm f2.8 or a Canon 60mm macro lens.

Or get a Nikon D7000 (16 MP) with a Nikon 45mm TE lens

http://www.nikonusa.com/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/2174/PC-E-Micro-NIKKOR-45mm-f%252F2.8D-ED.html

You might need the Tilt and Shift lens to shoot glazed art which might cause reflections. Shooting off axis can help avoid these reflections in the final photo.

 ;D brendon ... if our new pal sunny was financially in the same bracket with the two gentlemen u named i don't think he wud have bothered with "affordability" . thnx for the "blad" link .

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Offline Sunny

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 07:12:09 PM »
Means that gorgeous cutie of Hasse tops is in your wish list too...

If you tempt me so badly, I may do a Stephen Reid or sell my entire village and buy it ! ;) . When caught, will refer your post to cops !! ;D

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=d33a46e0-1b16-4d6c-863e-47e297d2b36f&k=77385


In fact I came here for a better deal from somebody 'knowledgeable' 8)

Offline Beyond Legacy

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 10:24:34 PM »
@Sunny..   Brendon's words make complete sense until and unless a person dont mention a budget range..!
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Offline Hankosaurus

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2011, 09:22:47 AM »
Hello Sunny.

Welcome to the JJMPF.

Can you describe the images you want to create with the camera and lens combination you are trying to identify? How will the finished images be used? What are the technical requirements of the images you will make? Size, pixels per inch in the finished print, and so on. What sort of flexibility will you have for lighting?

One problem you are going to run into is that cameras, sensors, and film rarely ever tell the exact truth in terms of color, contrast, and dynamic range.

A good start would be to define the goal, then to select the requisite tools.

:)
HENRY
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Offline Rovingeye

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2011, 09:33:24 AM »
Quote
Looking for suitable high resolution camera for art reproduction image capture

That's abstract Sunny,   you'll get only dark impressionistic responses ! Could you kindly articulate some clarity by shooting to the right !!

Offline Rovingeye

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2011, 09:40:29 AM »
Quote
I hope 60 Megapixels is enough for your requirements.

May be just enough to duplicate Mona Lisa with all its layers !   :)

Offline lightwave

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2011, 02:29:51 PM »
Quote
I hope 60 Megapixels is enough for your requirements.

May be just enough to duplicate Mona Lisa with all its layers !   :)
Damn!!! So I need to throaw away my 18MP 60D if I plan to the Louvre? Will the bullet proof glass also turn out to be Camera Proof? ;)
Mk III, Some lenses. Couple of flashes and a 1.4x TC.

Offline Image

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2011, 04:59:43 PM »
If you are on a budget and cannot afford to hire Da Vinci to come to your house and paint stuff for ya, I suggest the following :

1. Buy a Macro Lens
2. Highest MP Body you can afford.
3. A correct white balance setting mechanism (WhiBal, Expodisc, White Paper whatever)
4. Some DIY lighting that works for you
5. A nice tripod

Then if the idea is to simply document, make one photo and crop to remove the unwanted portions. If the idea to reproduce in the form of a print then go closer and make Panoramas (you will need some extra attachment to move the camera sideways) and hence a much higher Mega Pixel (resolution) and detailed photo for a bigger print.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 05:01:29 PM by Image »
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Offline Hellwrath

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2011, 09:43:25 PM »
I am not sure if you're aware of google art project (http://www.googleartproject.com/). You might want to do a research as to how they manage to create such wonderful photographs of paintings.

Offtopic: Can you guys spot a small bird in this painting? http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/frick/st-francis-in-the-desert
It amazes me to see such wonderful and minute details are taken care of in the painting and what makes it even better is the option to zoom in and see something that small.

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2011, 10:29:17 PM »
Why high megapixel is a must? Isn't stitching an option here? Will need a 2-way bubble level though.

Offline Hankosaurus

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2011, 11:31:52 PM »
Why high megapixel is a must? Isn't stitching an option here? Will need a 2-way bubble level though.

That's a fascinating question, NC. Isn't there some distortion where we try to overlap and match adjacent images taken with stitching in mind? I know that stitching software can patch/cobble the pieces together so that the eye does not really notice, but isn't that still distorted somewhat?

And if each of the captured images are not taken from the exact same point in space, there is a slight difference of perspective. Here, by perspective, I mean how things look from some finite point in space, not angle of view which many confuse with perspective.

Also, I suppose that in one way of thinking, stitching is done to get more megapixels into an image that would otherwise have less pixels to spread over the finished print of a given angle of view. It's just a matter of using the same pixels over and over in the same image.

:)

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Offline Image

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2011, 12:16:38 AM »
My idea for recommending highest Megapixel Camera one could afford was for a non-stitching scenario where I reckon some cropping would be involved. Paintings don't have to be 3:2 ratio and hence even considering the best compositional skills, cropping would be needed.
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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2011, 12:40:00 AM »
Henry, frankly -- I am unsure if it works for shooting by conventional still cameras. I know it *is* possible for line scanners with appropriate image composition algorithms built into the drivers, and that's why I asked.

Is a single shot image of entire painting otherwise free of lens FL/perspective issues that you spoke of? Again -- just wondering, not a rhetorical question (in case you wonder).

Why high megapixel is a must? Isn't stitching an option here? Will need a 2-way bubble level though.

That's a fascinating question, NC. Isn't there some distortion where we try to overlap and match adjacent images taken with stitching in mind? I know that stitching software can patch/cobble the pieces together so that the eye does not really notice, but isn't that still distorted somewhat?

And if each of the captured images are not taken from the exact same point in space, there is a slight difference of perspective. Here, by perspective, I mean how things look from some finite point in space, not angle of view which many confuse with perspective.

Also, I suppose that in one way of thinking, stitching is done to get more megapixels into an image that would otherwise have less pixels to spread over the finished print of a given angle of view. It's just a matter of using the same pixels over and over in the same image.

:)

Offline Hankosaurus

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Re: Best affordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2011, 03:49:42 AM »
Quote
Henry, frankly -- I am unsure if it works for shooting by conventional still cameras. I know it *is* possible for line scanners with appropriate image composition algorithms built into the drivers, and that's why I asked.

Hello again, NC.

The deeper I get into this the more questions I seem to have, instead of answers. Hence there came my question to you about distortion in stitching.

Like you and most here, I have seen stitched images which were not at all "obviously stitched." A month ago a friend of mine here showed me a large print, about 16 by 24, of a bridge and waterline shot he had made in New York City at night. It was stunning, sharp, and looked like what one would expect from a Hasselblad or maybe even a 4X5 using transparency material. To make the shot, he had put his APS-H Canon into a vertical position and shot five frames with considerable overlap, panning horizontally for each next shot. Then he stitched those together into that one breathtaking image which I saw.

Quote
Is a single shot image of entire painting otherwise free of lens FL/perspective issues that you spoke of?

Technically, I would guess maybe not. Practically, I would say "close enough" for my modest purposes.

I suppose that a flat field copy lens might "approach" such a "freedom." Something like a long enlarging lens or a macro would be my best estimation. Failing that, one could work to minimize such distortion with more ordinary optics by reducing the angle of view (using longer focal length), making the subject plane flatter (smaller part of the arc or sphere of what is in focus), and keeping that parallel with the film/sensor plane.

AFAIK no lens is free of technical limitations of one sort or another. I have read that lens designers "balance" limitations and apply corrections to arrive at a lens that best matches some purpose they have in mind. An optic optimized for one application is probably inferior in some others.

As a practical matter, if the image suits the perceived needs of its creator or the creator's client, then well enough. I doubt if any camera or lens ever gets all things exactly, perfectly right, technically. But the results may appear perfect to a particular shooter or viewer.

A few years ago I needed to copy some portrait paintings onto 35mm film for a family related event.  These were about 40 inches by 54 inches, or thereabouts.

Having no "perfect" lens in my arsenal, I chose based upon the notion that I wanted to minimize perspective distortion, and minimize non-linearity of horizontal and vertical elements. The maximum distance available to me was about twelve feet from the paintings. I selected a 105mm f2.5 for the shots. They served the purpose well enough. My greatest concern afterwards was for color fidelity and dynamic range, not linearity, sharpness, or perspective distortion.

For those doing this, keep in mind that oil paint brush strokes can glare even if illuminated at the commonly used 45 degree angle for copy work. I had to set the lamps at about 30 degrees off of the subject plane to keep glare off of the three dimensional brush strokes while giving the needed illumination.

:)
HENRY
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Offline Image

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2011, 08:13:49 AM »
Don't forget focus stacking  :). Can take care of almost any such imperfection - at least for the purpose we are speaking of here.
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Offline Rovingeye

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2011, 04:50:30 PM »
Quote
Am experienced in image editing and digital printing, got good computer system with photoshop software. Printer: I am told Epson/HP/Canon inkjet printers are best suitable.

Quality image capture is my hurdle. Am not expert in photography, trying to study it. With my limited study I found ‘even lighting’ is tough job for image capture of flat paintings.

Scanner is an alternative, but very high cost.

1. A Canon EOS 600D or a Nikon D90 are suitable with good    lighting to start with?
   Or what is best at around 50000 budget? (Less?)
2. What kind of lens?
3. Lighting system ?
4. Editing software. Is Photoshop alone enough?

Now you're talking !  :)   I'll build on my ancient dark-room experiences !

You do not need any of the conventional photographic skill. But , like a lab technician, you need to 'set up', depending on your final reproduction sizes. Build a DIY 'copy-stand' for floor-mounted recopy work . floor-mounted.....for flexibility of size.

It's exactly like an enlarger, only the dock is replaced by a camera. Nikon 5100D or canon 60D will do just fine , i think. (heck, even a G12 would do, for some ! ) please note, all these have rotating LCD panels....you'll need them ! Nikon F3 HP was popular those days !
( I presume, camera can also be ceiling-mounted on those extenders that are used for lights ! )

For lens, Nikkor 60 mm AFD was meant for such flat artwork recopy job. Please investigate for such 'flat' lenses !

We'd used two Domed reflectors at 45 degree on either side. Today, I'd use two soft-boxes on either side at 45 or 30 degree , cancelling out shadows ! And get diffused even light .

Photoshop is more than enough !

Good luck !

PS : Haven't read much of the posts above. Hope I'm not 'duplicating' !!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 04:56:47 PM by Rovingeye »

Offline Hankosaurus

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2011, 10:08:54 PM »
Hello Rabin.

Your post reminds me of a friend's 6cm X 6cm Durst enlarger of long ago. It doubled as a "copy camera."

Enlargement projection and printing is, after all, flat field image transfer between subject plane (negative) and image recording plane (photosensitive paper). And copying flat-work is essentially the reverse of the same.

:)
HENRY
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Offline amitk26

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Re: Best afordable camera for image capture for Paintings?
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2011, 11:19:58 PM »
watching this thread with interest