Feedback - FROWNS

[thelightening]

Just a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit(3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15.It will put a safeguard atleast.I am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing(yes including myself,I have bought a canon 60D from this forum).
Atleast some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay.
Regards
Francis

Francis, if u see the posts before, I already have suggested this idea, but its not possible to handle it seems, so mods replied that its not possible .

Most of the newbies here will join jjmf for selling or buying something... their first post majorly will be in buy&sell

[Hankosaurus]

Hello Francis.

Thanks for your ideas and input.

... A lot of newbies on their first post itself put up a sale for their friends, verifying it would be a herculean task isn't it.

Presently, any Member of JJMPF can sell equipment of his own which he has used, or occasionally sell equipment belonging to (and used by) a friend. Members should be ever mindful that newbies with no track record may or may not be credible. And, for that matter, experience has shown us that tenure is no guarantee of integrity in Buy & Sell either. It just gives the Members more data points from which to evaluate sellers and buyers.

I for one would never sell for a friend because it is hard to know how he or she use their equipment on their own. The only thing one can truly vouch for is their friends integrity & honesty. Non the less one should not stop members from buying good used equipment.

Well, if the Member isn't willing to stand in 100% for the owner and product to assure the quality of the deal, then he shouldn't sell for that friend.

If the seller is a vendor, trader, buyer, seller, broker or anyone else who has a profit motive as an on-going mode of operation, then he will not be allowed to conduct his business on JJMPF. His access will be blocked and his account will be removed. If JJMPF Members want to conduct business with such people as trade in camera gear, or in anything else, they will have to go elsewhere to manage their transactions with those businesses.

Just a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit (3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15. It will put a safeguard at least.

The minimum post scheme can be easily defeated. As before mentioned above, even tenure is no assurance of integrity. To the point of a prerequisite "three month's Membership in good standing," it may seem like a helpful idea on the surface. However, anyone looking at a post can see what the seller Member's tenure is. Seems to me like he could just decide that he isn't going to buy from anyone with less than, say six month's tenure. That way, each buyer Member can take his own decision about how much tenure is acceptable to himself, and how much risk he is willing to entertain.

I am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing (yes including myself, I have bought a Canon 60D from this forum). At least some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay. ... Regards, Francis

The very best safeguard is prudent judgement on the part of the Members participating in the Buy & Sell Forum. Beyond that, and working together, we can assure that the Buy & Sell Rules are adhered to.  This will go a long way toward keeping the damage to our fellow JJMPF Members from riff-raff at a minimum.

[rocky]

Hello everyone,
I recently bought a Nikon SB 600 flash from member “Gurmeet” based on his post in the Buy and Sell Section:
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=13884.0

Depending on his description of the item as ‘mint’ condition, and on a superficial examination of his posted pictures in that post, it seemed like a good deal.

I contacted him on the given number and he assured me that the condition was ‘mint’ and to hurry if I wanted the item as ‘three others were interested’ in the same.

Consequently, I paid Rs. 8500 plus Rs. 350 (shipping cost) =  Rs. 8850 to his bank account. Nothing happened for a few days. I contacted him and got him to send it finally.

To his credit, it was well packed and there was absolutely no sign of damage to the parcel while in transit and I opened the package in front of the courier guy and there was no external damage to the flash either.

The flash, however, was not in a mint condition. It was well used. There was a screw missing on the underside of the head (for reference see my post in the thread above) – suggesting that the flash unit had been repaired by a non-professional at least once.

I put in fresh batteries waited for the ‘ready’ yellow light to come on and pressed the ‘test fire’ button. A faint click and the ‘ready’ button blinked…no flash output.
Put the flash on my D90, clicked the shutter button..no flash.

I tried the zoom which was working. The LCD was also working. Did a reset and tried again with no results.

In short the flash was DOA.

I called up Mr. Gurmeet and told him that the flash was not firing. He suggested that the flash tube may have got damaged in transit!! (Instant Diagnosis!! How did he know it was a flash tube problem immediately, when other members needed more details from me to come to the same conclusion?).

Moreover, given the nature of the packing and the absence of any sign of external damage to the packing or the flash, I thought it extremely unlikely that the flash had got ‘damaged’ in transit.

But I still was willing to give him the benefit of doubt and continued discussion with him.

After some more discussion, he said he would repair the flash if I sent it to him. I agreed.
Half an hour later he seems to have changed his mind and sent me a one line email with the words “No return policy”.

After getting this jolt, I tried to contact him many times – he either cut my calls or did not pick up, smsed him -  no response, emailed him -  no response.

Finally I put up a message to him on his sell thread asking him for a solution. He did not respond to that too for a couple of days. Meanwhile many members posted in that thread about the situation and the need for Mr. Gurmeet to take responsibility for his product.

After a couple of days, he responded sketchily, refusing to accept any responsibility for the flash and refusing to make amends.

I then made enquiries locally and ascertained that the repair cost, if it was a flash tube problem only would be around Rs. 1500. I then posted a message asking Mr. Gurmeet to re-imburse at least this amount. I emailed him the same message.

He refused, now asking him to send it back to him for repair. But given his attitude shown so far, I was not prepared to take the risk of sending it back to him. What if the flash got “damaged” again in transit? He said his role would end after sending the flash back after “repair”.

Since he was not prepared to take any responsibility for his actions I am now posting this in the “FROWNS” thread to warn other members not to deal with Mr. Gurmeet in future.

I am convinced that he has willfully misrepresented the state of his flash as mint, whereas it is not mint at all. When the said flash arrived DOA, and he was confronted with the issue, he did not communicate any caring whatsoever for the buyer or for the product that he had sold.

In case he is banned and he rejoins this forum under some other name, I am posting his details too here:

Name: Gurmeet Singh
Address:
Studio Photogenic
Light Chowk, Near fly over
Kotkapura-151204
Dist: Faridkot,
Punjab
Phone number:  9216728176
Email: [email protected]
Bank: HDFC
Account Number: 0648*******949 (partial number for obvious security reasons)

Thank you,
Rocky
PS: (Edited on 2nd December 2011)
I got the flash repaired at a good shop with an original Nikon Flash Tube for which I was charged Rs. 1350. The scan copy of the bill is attached.
I emailed the seller "gurmeet" and made him a very fair offer. Since it would cost me Rs 350 to send the flash to him for repair, I offered to deduct that amount from the bill and asked him to refund just Rs. 1000. (Even if I had sent the flash to him for repair as he wanted, he would have incurred Rs. 600 for repair - by his own admission - and another Rs. 350 for courier back to me after repair. So he would not lose anything by my offer.

PS 2: (Edited on 6th December 2011)
The seller emailed me denying any intention to defraud and agreed to partially reimburse the cost of repair as I offered him above.
He has refunded Rs. 1000 as his restitution.
Miracles do happen!!

[Hankosaurus]

Fellow Members,

It is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member "gurmeet" of Punjab has willfully misrepresented a product offered in Buy & Sell. Numerous fair and patiently presented attempts to encourage an amicable solution to the problem have failed. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 29a.

No further inquiries, nor any special comments from any Member on this issue will be entertained by the Moderators.

[thelightening]

wrt  "http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,19269.0.html"

mukeshkhatri_ind  -  A buyer who bargained with me for more than 3-4 days to buy my 70-200 F/4 Lens offline. Even though I was sticking to my price, after multiple bargaining chat sessions, at last I agreed to the price he quoted, 34k (including the freebies, tripod collar and UV filter worth 1500Rs), based on which he requested me whether I can accept or cheque or not. Since I was not interested in any cheque deals, buyer agreed to do a fund transfer by yesterday (01 Jun) night or a direct cash deal today (02 Jun) noon.  He specifically requested me to consider my sale as booked and agree to mention the same in my sales threads. I have re-confirmed this two times and updated my WTS thread .

As per agreement both buyer and seller was suppose to meet today ( 02 Jun) noon. By 13:47pm today, buyer sms'ed me saying in some local stores (fotocircle) the prices are less(37k) and is not 41k.. so want to sit over and discuss about the same. As a seller I replied that, there is no changes possible in our agreement and its the same price as u negotiated.  Buyer sent me an another sms asking whats the brand of my tripod collar. I started feeling a bit awkward here, as we have fixed everything and the deal is agreed with all details for some price. I called the buyer and explained again. By the time buyer called the dealer from which I have bought the stuffs. So I feel a kind of untrustworthy here and said the rates we discussed are final and not interested to carry on any kind of re-bargaining.

Buyer backed out !!!

I personally feel this, not as a genuine step in a deal which the seller has agreed to the price by the buyer after hard bargaining everyday on multiple chat sessions. At last I agreed to the price negotiated by the buyer and marked the item booked. 

So would like to raise a caution on this member.

[Infantarian]

I have some experience in Fraud Management in the Government and Pvt. Sector as well. Whenever I have to deal with someone online whom I don't know personally, I try to track all his online activities (Social networks/posts etc.) I proceed only when I am sure about who I am dealing with. My entire kit has been bought used from different people but not once have I been sorry (touch-wood).

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me 

[toofan]

I have some experience in Fraud Management in the Government and Pvt. Sector as well. Whenever I have to deal with someone online whom I don't know personally, I try to track all his online activities (Social networks/posts etc.) I proceed only when I am sure about who I am dealing with. My entire kit has been bought used from different people but not once have I been sorry (touch-wood).

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me 

Another side of a coin.

[neocore]

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me 

There is no negativity from seller here, even i would have done the same thing(if people quote amazon prices), you should possibly think of shipping costs+customs issues before uttering something to the seller. Ultimately, no buyer is doing a favor for seller by buying his equipment. Most people cant judge humor in pings(including me  )

[kumarrishi]

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me 

There is no negativity from seller here, even i would have done the same thing(if people quote amazon prices), you should possibly think of shipping costs+customs issues before uttering something to the seller. Ultimately, no buyer is doing a favor for seller by buying his equipment. Most people cant judge humor in pings(including me  )

I will second what Neocore said , how do i judge someone is just asking it humorously or is a lowballer trying to get the item cheap. I would give benefit of doubt here to the seller as he might have already received lot of comments from Lowballers ! I faced this situation every time it tried to sell anything, even after posting fix price.

And Infantarian - Its note a joke when you don't take into account some of the cost neocore indicated. If a seller has a firm price that doesnt mean his attitude is negative. In online forums when we talk through text i find no way to tell peoples attitude through their messages.

[Brendon]

I have some experience in Fraud Management in the Government and Pvt. Sector as well. Whenever I have to deal with someone online whom I don't know personally, I try to track all his online activities (Social networks/posts etc.) I proceed only when I am sure about who I am dealing with. My entire kit has been bought used from different people but not once have I been sorry (touch-wood).

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me 

I am with the seller on this one. Probably a bit harsh reaction TBH but I too would have felt quite offended if someone is quoting amazon prices while I have bought the bag from India where its much more expensive than what its sold for in the US.

[Hankosaurus]

thelightening said:

I personally feel this, not as a genuine step in a deal which the seller has agreed to the price by the buyer after hard bargaining everyday on multiple chat sessions. At last I agreed to the price negotiated by the buyer and marked the item booked. ... So would like to raise a caution on this member.

It appears that a verbal contract between JJMPF Members was in place at the moment the deal was struck and the price was agreed to by the seller, and as requested by the buyer.

Violation of a verbal contract is a violation of the Rules within the JJMPF Buy & Sell Forum.

Caution with regard to Member mukeshkhatri_ind is well advised, IMO. Integrity is not just something; it's everything.

[kaushik_s]

 I don't understand why the seller should get offended if someone quotes Amazon (or B&H or anything) price. Why the seller has to take it personally and retort in somewhat uncalled for manner? Can't he politely say that, " sorry, I can't give you at that price", instead of saying "Go, take a hike"? How difficult is that? Are we becoming too insensitive when we have to sell some stuff? What happens if you guys go  to a shop and when you try to bargain and then shop-keeper tells you to get lost? Won't you guys feel offended and probably even stop buying from that seller? Then why when another buyer asks for some bargain (and in this case it was not even bargain) then we suddenly loose our cool and shoo away the buyer with such harsh words? I really don't think that shows the right attitude and I'm very much in agree with what Infantarian did. Anyway, everyone to his own.
 Regards,

[Brendon]

I don't understand why the seller should get offended if someone quotes Amazon (or B&H or anything) price. Why the seller has to take it personally and retort in somewhat uncalled for manner? Can't he politely say that, " sorry, I can't give you at that price", instead of saying "Go, take a hike"? How difficult is that? Are we becoming too insensitive when we have to sell some stuff? What happens if you guys go  to a shop and when you try to bargain and then shop-keeper tells you to get lost? Won't you guys feel offended and probably even stop buying from that seller? Then why when another buyer asks for some bargain (and in this case it was not even bargain) then we suddenly loose our cool and shoo away the buyer with such harsh words? I really don't think that shows the right attitude and I'm very much in agree with what Infantarian did. Anyway, everyone to his own.
 Regards,

Hi Kaushik, if you have ever dealt with low ballers you will know how most sellers feel. They are very rude in trying to reduce your price and frankly no one can tell the difference between sarcasm, rudeness or politeness from an online text. I have dealt with low ballers extensively with my very first sale in JJM and frankly its hardened my heart towards anybody doing excessive bargaining.

Quoting amazon prices is a very common tactic for low ballers to try and reduce the price. I had one joker you practically gave me an ultimatum saying "see this camera is priced at $200 used which is like 10k in India and its condition is better than yours so ill pay you max 9k. Take it or leave it as you won't get a better offer."

I don't see any rationale in quoting an amazon/bhphoto price when the item in question is going to cost a LOT more after customs and shipping. So unless the person is quoting an INDIAN website with items within India then you are trying to mislead an individual by making it seem that your prices are very high.

I have once quoted a price for a product and a buyer showed me a link where it was cheaper for a brand new item IN INDIA. So I accepted my mistake and reduced the price accordingly and sold it to him.

And IMO its not correct to compare a shop to an individual trying to get rid of his gear. A shop makes a profit from each sale and customers are generally plenty.

An individual trying to sell off his gear is making a loss each and every time (except for a few people who deliberately buy low priced stuff to see for higher prices and make a profit). So the individuals prerogative is to reduce the loss as much as possible.

I agree that the persons response to Infantarian was very rude and while I don't agree to his reaction I can very well understand what the seller is going through.

[kaushik_s]

Well, Bendon, I would agree that with some irritating low-ballers who would repeatedly bug you, retorting like that would be the only option left. I also had my share of experience with them and yes those experiences were not very pleasant. But I don't think it's acceptable that when anyone just refers to Amazon (may be in jest in this case) then one should always put that person also in the same basket. If someone repeatedly keep on pushing you then you probably have the option to snap back or just plainly ignore those low-ballers. You yourself said that some low-ballers are very rude and you don't like the way they portray themselves. Then why should you as a seller also become like that to someone else who is not a low-baller but genuinely asking?

About the shop/commercial establishment analogy, yes I think it's  more prudent for them to be polite. And as we expect them to be polite then why can't we also be like what we want others to be? That too to another fellow photographer and someone from the same fraternity (except those really irritating low-ballers but someone quoting Amazon once doesn't mean that he/she is a low-baller. I hope you'ld agree with that). I'm not telling people to be polite when the other person is rude like the person you've encountered. But one shouldn't be prejudiced always that anyone who wants to bargain a bit or quotes Amazon price sometimes are all in the same league.

And also when an user sells his used item, I don't think we think about loss in monetary term unless it's really huge. But think about the good time you had while using that item and now you are selling it at a value which you feel is right with the present condition of the item. And to be frank, nowadays the prices of the new items (photography related) have gone so high that most of the time one would end up selling it for the same price that he has bought even after using it for years. Anyway, it's a different topic all together and perceptions can vary from person to person.

[Sachn]

When it clearly states under the Buy & Sell category that 'JJMehta has no control over this board' I think the mods need not interfere there. It's great to have stickies like the Grins and Frowns but expecting mods or even if the mods on their own accord should not involve themselves. It is a photo forum for a lot of things besides the Buy & Sell. That category is to make it easy within the forum/community but at the end it is Caveat Emptor. The buyer has to do this due diligence and if he ignores a few red flags on a deal well that's how he'll get it right the next time.

Also any seller may get away with 1 bad transaction beyond that there won't be the opportunity cause JJMPF has a lot of vigilant members constantly monitoring the B&S section...

[yusuf]

I don't understand why the seller should get offended if someone quotes Amazon (or B&H or anything) price. Why the seller has to take it personally and retort in somewhat uncalled for manner?

Hi Kaushik, if you have ever dealt with low ballers you will know how most sellers feel. They are very rude in trying to reduce your price and frankly no one can tell the difference between sarcasm, rudeness or politeness from an online text. I have dealt with low ballers extensively with my very first sale in JJM and frankly its hardened my heart towards anybody doing excessive bargaining.

..

+1, I recently came across at least two buyers who seems to be using this technique, quoting keh.com price despite of making it clear that I was not interested in negotiating. One buyer went ahead with even a cheap technique, posted a buy listing of same item with description of 'what would be the reasonable' price.  Now this was not the case here but I can understand if Kata seller was rude.


 

[kumarrishi]

I don't understand why the seller should get offended if someone quotes Amazon (or B&H or anything) price. Why the seller has to take it personally and retort in somewhat uncalled for manner?

Hi Kaushik, if you have ever dealt with low ballers you will know how most sellers feel. They are very rude in trying to reduce your price and frankly no one can tell the difference between sarcasm, rudeness or politeness from an online text. I have dealt with low ballers extensively with my very first sale in JJM and frankly its hardened my heart towards anybody doing excessive bargaining.

..

+1, I recently came across at least two buyers who seems to be using this technique, quoting keh.com price despite of making it clear that I was not interested in negotiating. One buyer went ahead with even a cheap technique, posted a buy listing of same item with description of 'what would be the reasonable' price.  Now this was not the case here but I can understand if Kata seller was rude.

How do you understand what is rude or not or what is in good humour???
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon

Please dont judge from what it appears in written words...with these smiles now i think you can interpret in 5-6 ways. And your interpretation may depend on what mood you were in while reading these lines (without a simile).

Please respect when someone writes NON NEGOTIABLE

Price debate etc, if necessary can be done by PM with the seller.

[Bharat Varma]

Classic samples, Rishi.
Now if only you could put together a similar list for "Your price is too high!!" (to be sent as a pm only, obviously), this could be the start of a whole new language on the Buy and Sell subforum.

[Madan]

For my 1.7 TC, one guy, dug out it will only work with f/2.8 lens
and not with f/4 lens, as he will loose auto focus !

I replied, "What should I do about that ?"

End of discussion ! 

When someone clearly writes "Non Negotiable", why should you even try negotiating over PM ?
and risk getting told off !

If his item is not sold it's the seller's problem. If he steps down to "Negotiable" at a later date
then negotiate !

[kaushik_s]

How do you understand what is rude or not or what is in good humour???
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon

Please dont judge from what it appears in written words...with these smiles now i think you can interpret in 5-6 ways. And your interpretation may depend on what mood you were in while reading these lines (without a simile).

Exactly, then how can you distinguish between,
 Amazon is having a better price
  Amazon is having a better price
 Amazon is having a better price 
  Amazon is having a better price

and judge that the seller is another low-life low-baller and not a genuine buyer. I'm simply trying to say that if someone just asks for a discount or whatever (before getting annoyingly persistent on bargaining) then there are ways to say no in a polite manner than to be rude and tell the person to buzz off. If that's not clear or it's too tough for one to be polite before taking out the guns and daggers then I've nothing more to say. I rest my case here. And BTW, we are not even talking about sells with "No Negotiation" clause, so please keep that aside.
 Regards,